[OutsiderFan]

Fact: Winning wars requires great sacrifice.
Fact: Great leaders speak truth about the sacrifice needed to win them.
Fact: The American people have not been asked to sacrifice in my lifetime.

[OutsiderFan]

Fact: Winning wars requires great sacrifice.
Fact: Great leaders speak truth about the sacrifice needed to win them.
Fact: The American people have not been asked to sacrifice in my lifetime.

[OutsiderFan]

The UK was a little slow on the draw, but they now get it. Here is what a real leader of a country looks like:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1242190199909691400[/tweet]

[OutsiderFan]

The UK was a little slow on the draw, but they now get it. Here is what a real leader of a country looks like:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1242190199909691400[/tweet]

[Farm93]

“Our country wasn’t built to be shut down,” Trump continued. “This is not a country that was built for this.” "

Which countries were? This is a useless statement. Just says the truism that being shut down is not good.

I think I can get there.

France was built for shutdowns - 
The working citizens get 6 (or more) weeks of vacation.
Many routinely take August off, so they have that part of the challenge down too.
And, with universal health care, they don't need to scramble back to work seconds after layoffs.
Most of Europe has a similar deal as many even offer extended paid breaks for those struggling with serious illnesses.

The USA was not built for shutdowns 
Working citizens get 2 weeks of vacation time, if they are lucky
Most don't even take their 2 week allocation each year
With insurance provided by employers Americans often can't afford healthcare when they become unemployed
In most cases USA citizens will get a small fraction of their pay should they become disabled and almost nothing if they have a serious illness.

So if you think about it the USA was not built for shutdowns is essentially true. 
For similar reasons the USA was not built for pandemics.

Feel free to relocate to France.

France has loads of issues with their worker-business model.  France's system is definitely not even close to ideal for normal times.
HOWEVER, no doubt in my mind that the USA model is not built for a contagious health care pandemic.
Americans are not just socially pressured to work while sick, in many cases their livelihood requires that devotion to the economy. 

POTUS is right.  The USA is not built for a shutdown.  If he understood that in January he should have mobilized the USA's great resources in the way Korea did in January.   Get industry to test aggressively from day #1 because, as he now claims he knows, the USA absolutely can't wait to take the shutdown route.   Sigh.

[Farm93]

“Our country wasn’t built to be shut down,” Trump continued. “This is not a country that was built for this.” "

Which countries were? This is a useless statement. Just says the truism that being shut down is not good.

I think I can get there.

France was built for shutdowns - 
The working citizens get 6 (or more) weeks of vacation.
Many routinely take August off, so they have that part of the challenge down too.
And, with universal health care, they don't need to scramble back to work seconds after layoffs.
Most of Europe has a similar deal as many even offer extended paid breaks for those struggling with serious illnesses.

The USA was not built for shutdowns 
Working citizens get 2 weeks of vacation time, if they are lucky
Most don't even take their 2 week allocation each year
With insurance provided by employers Americans often can't afford healthcare when they become unemployed
In most cases USA citizens will get a small fraction of their pay should they become disabled and almost nothing if they have a serious illness.

So if you think about it the USA was not built for shutdowns is essentially true. 
For similar reasons the USA was not built for pandemics.

Feel free to relocate to France.

France has loads of issues with their worker-business model.  France's system is definitely not even close to ideal for normal times.
HOWEVER, no doubt in my mind that the USA model is not built for a contagious health care pandemic.
Americans are not just socially pressured to work while sick, in many cases their livelihood requires that devotion to the economy. 

POTUS is right.  The USA is not built for a shutdown.  If he understood that in January he should have mobilized the USA's great resources in the way Korea did in January.   Get industry to test aggressively from day #1 because, as he now claims he knows, the USA absolutely can't wait to take the shutdown route.   Sigh.

[Goose]

POTUS is right.  The USA is not built for a shutdown.  If he understood that in January he should have mobilized the USA's great resources in the way Korea did in January.   Get industry to test aggressively from day #1 because, as he now claims he knows, the USA absolutely can't wait to take the shutdown route.   Sigh.

Unfortunately, as has been proved over and over again, mobilizing great resources takes time. Korea mobilized resources that they have maintained in readiness, had been forged by SARS and were resourced to do what was needed. We did not have those resources standing by. Industry can't do anything from day 1 unless they already know how to do it, have done it, and are allowed to do it their way, none of which applies to the USA in this case. We are in fact lucky that Roche and Abbott Labs have been able to respond with approved (emergency) tests for their PCR products as soon as they did. You can't just snap your fingers and bring forth a Public Health Service adequate to this task even if you are POTUS and have all the money in the world, as we and a lot of other nations are in the process of demonstrating.
We all would prefer that the whole problem just go away, but it isn't going to do that. There is lots of to and fro here about when it will be appropriate to start letting the economy "return to normal", whatever that will mean. I am pretty sure nobody really knows much about that, as we have a novel virus with largely unknown characteristics. There are also many paths back to "normal", all with their own pluses and minuses. How will this be decided? One would hope for a coherent, well thought out plan that could be presented to the public. It may not be a "good" plan. It may fail, or not produce anything like an optimal result, but it would at least be a rational plan. Unfortunately, we probably aren't going to get that. It will be a happening I'm afraid. If it happens soon, I greatly fear that we will not yet have any warning systems in place to determine if we are putting ourselves at risk again. I see no signs (or even a recognition of the need) that we are developing a capability to track, trace, and quarantine a significant number of people (the dance). Without that, the risk is high that we will have subsequent damaging outbreaks.

[Goose]

POTUS is right.  The USA is not built for a shutdown.  If he understood that in January he should have mobilized the USA's great resources in the way Korea did in January.   Get industry to test aggressively from day #1 because, as he now claims he knows, the USA absolutely can't wait to take the shutdown route.   Sigh.

Unfortunately, as has been proved over and over again, mobilizing great resources takes time. Korea mobilized resources that they have maintained in readiness, had been forged by SARS and were resourced to do what was needed. We did not have those resources standing by. Industry can't do anything from day 1 unless they already know how to do it, have done it, and are allowed to do it their way, none of which applies to the USA in this case. We are in fact lucky that Roche and Abbott Labs have been able to respond with approved (emergency) tests for their PCR products as soon as they did. You can't just snap your fingers and bring forth a Public Health Service adequate to this task even if you are POTUS and have all the money in the world, as we and a lot of other nations are in the process of demonstrating.
We all would prefer that the whole problem just go away, but it isn't going to do that. There is lots of to and fro here about when it will be appropriate to start letting the economy "return to normal", whatever that will mean. I am pretty sure nobody really knows much about that, as we have a novel virus with largely unknown characteristics. There are also many paths back to "normal", all with their own pluses and minuses. How will this be decided? One would hope for a coherent, well thought out plan that could be presented to the public. It may not be a "good" plan. It may fail, or not produce anything like an optimal result, but it would at least be a rational plan. Unfortunately, we probably aren't going to get that. It will be a happening I'm afraid. If it happens soon, I greatly fear that we will not yet have any warning systems in place to determine if we are putting ourselves at risk again. I see no signs (or even a recognition of the need) that we are developing a capability to track, trace, and quarantine a significant number of people (the dance). Without that, the risk is high that we will have subsequent damaging outbreaks.

[Snorlax94]

I think part of the disagreement stems from the fact that some people are being absolutely hammered financially by the shutdown and are desperate to re-open (and in my opinion, are so desperate that they are willing to risk mass deaths). 

I wish we could re-open. But,

1) People desperate for business to go "back to usual" are fooling themselves. For many industries, business will not go back to usual. People aren't going to go back to movies like usual, corporations aren't going to say, "Oh, Trump tells us it's safe so let's send all our employees to conferences now." People are't going to pack Disneyland. Companies aren't going to invest in major new systems (software, automation, new factories) with so much uncertainty. I don't see how sports can return with fans for a long time. So to an extent, a forced, premature re-opening has all the risk but will have limited benefit for many industries. It will kill people for nothing. And if/when the virus hits with even greater impact, the economic cost will end up being even greater.

2) Even in the recent NYTimes Friedman article, who also ponders a relatively quick re-opening, he lists an assumption that we just have to test more and contain better after a lockdown. Oh, is that all. We just need an effective, massive, competent, science-based, emotionally stable, rational government response that is willing to use Big Government and even Socialize/Nationalize industries when necessary, with  credible leadership that brings out the best in *all* Americans for shared sacrifice and unity. Oh, see, we have nothing to worry about.  By all means, re-open for business.

[Snorlax94]

I think part of the disagreement stems from the fact that some people are being absolutely hammered financially by the shutdown and are desperate to re-open (and in my opinion, are so desperate that they are willing to risk mass deaths). 

I wish we could re-open. But,

1) People desperate for business to go "back to usual" are fooling themselves. For many industries, business will not go back to usual. People aren't going to go back to movies like usual, corporations aren't going to say, "Oh, Trump tells us it's safe so let's send all our employees to conferences now." People are't going to pack Disneyland. Companies aren't going to invest in major new systems (software, automation, new factories) with so much uncertainty. I don't see how sports can return with fans for a long time. So to an extent, a forced, premature re-opening has all the risk but will have limited benefit for many industries. It will kill people for nothing. And if/when the virus hits with even greater impact, the economic cost will end up being even greater.

2) Even in the recent NYTimes Friedman article, who also ponders a relatively quick re-opening, he lists an assumption that we just have to test more and contain better after a lockdown. Oh, is that all. We just need an effective, massive, competent, science-based, emotionally stable, rational government response that is willing to use Big Government and even Socialize/Nationalize industries when necessary, with  credible leadership that brings out the best in *all* Americans for shared sacrifice and unity. Oh, see, we have nothing to worry about.  By all means, re-open for business.

[magnus]

Trump has extended social distancing guidelines to April 30th.  Glad he reset expectations to something more reasonable,  if still aggressive.

[magnus]

Trump has extended social distancing guidelines to April 30th.  Glad he reset expectations to something more reasonable,  if still aggressive.

[Farm93]

Trump has extended social distancing guidelines to April 30th.  Glad he reset expectations to something more reasonable,  if still aggressive.

Social distancing will be in full force until a vaccine is available.   2021 is something more reasonable, anything pre-June 2020 is an absolute pipe dream.

Stay at home may stop in May or June, but social distancing will be the order in CA and most other states until a vaccine is available.  Trump may lift the national social distancing restrictions, but only states without large cities will dare follow the order.  That may be helpful though as many business sectors could go months with work from home policies, but someone needs to be harvesting crops, processing food and making stuff.

Social distancing guidelines by states, WHO and the medical community will almost certainly leave life very far from normal for at least 12 more months.   College Football 2020 looks very vulnerable BTW. 

It remains very disappointing that the POTUS doesn't even hint at a multi-quarter social distancing scenario.

Though this particular approach to endlessly trying to spin a very negative story does shed light on how Trump could convince so many to keep extending lines of credit even after multiple bankruptcies.

[Farm93]

Trump has extended social distancing guidelines to April 30th.  Glad he reset expectations to something more reasonable,  if still aggressive.

Social distancing will be in full force until a vaccine is available.   2021 is something more reasonable, anything pre-June 2020 is an absolute pipe dream.

Stay at home may stop in May or June, but social distancing will be the order in CA and most other states until a vaccine is available.  Trump may lift the national social distancing restrictions, but only states without large cities will dare follow the order.  That may be helpful though as many business sectors could go months with work from home policies, but someone needs to be harvesting crops, processing food and making stuff.

Social distancing guidelines by states, WHO and the medical community will almost certainly leave life very far from normal for at least 12 more months.   College Football 2020 looks very vulnerable BTW. 

It remains very disappointing that the POTUS doesn't even hint at a multi-quarter social distancing scenario.

Though this particular approach to endlessly trying to spin a very negative story does shed light on how Trump could convince so many to keep extending lines of credit even after multiple bankruptcies.

[chrisk]

Trump has extended social distancing guidelines to April 30th.  Glad he reset expectations to something more reasonable,  if still aggressive.

Social distancing will be in full force until a vaccine is available.   2021 is something more reasonable, anything pre-June 2020 is an absolute pipe dream.

Stay at home may stop in May or June, but social distancing will be the order in CA and most other states until a vaccine is available.  Trump may lift the national social distancing restrictions, but only states without large cities will dare follow the order.  That may be helpful though as many business sectors could go months with work from home policies, but someone needs to be harvesting crops, processing food and making stuff.

Social distancing guidelines by states, WHO and the medical community will almost certainly leave life very far from normal for at least 12 more months.   College Football 2020 looks very vulnerable BTW. 

It remains very disappointing that the POTUS doesn't even hint at a multi-quarter social distancing scenario.

Though this particular approach to endlessly trying to spin a very negative story does shed light on how Trump could convince so many to keep extending lines of credit even after multiple bankruptcies.

Trump stated today that his call for “packed” churches at Easter was aspirational.

[chrisk]

Trump has extended social distancing guidelines to April 30th.  Glad he reset expectations to something more reasonable,  if still aggressive.

Social distancing will be in full force until a vaccine is available.   2021 is something more reasonable, anything pre-June 2020 is an absolute pipe dream.

Stay at home may stop in May or June, but social distancing will be the order in CA and most other states until a vaccine is available.  Trump may lift the national social distancing restrictions, but only states without large cities will dare follow the order.  That may be helpful though as many business sectors could go months with work from home policies, but someone needs to be harvesting crops, processing food and making stuff.

Social distancing guidelines by states, WHO and the medical community will almost certainly leave life very far from normal for at least 12 more months.   College Football 2020 looks very vulnerable BTW. 

It remains very disappointing that the POTUS doesn't even hint at a multi-quarter social distancing scenario.

Though this particular approach to endlessly trying to spin a very negative story does shed light on how Trump could convince so many to keep extending lines of credit even after multiple bankruptcies.

Trump stated today that his call for “packed” churches at Easter was aspirational.

[2006alum]

Trump stated today that his call for “packed” churches at Easter was aspirational.

Given the way this virus transmits, the last thing any leader should be calling for is packed gatherings for the purposes of aspiration.

[2006alum]

Trump stated today that his call for “packed” churches at Easter was aspirational.

Given the way this virus transmits, the last thing any leader should be calling for is packed gatherings for the purposes of aspiration.

[oldalum]

Given the way this virus transmits, the last thing any leader should be calling for is packed gatherings for the purposes of aspiration.

or inspiration.

[oldalum]

Given the way this virus transmits, the last thing any leader should be calling for is packed gatherings for the purposes of aspiration.

or inspiration.

[2006alum]

Someone a ways back brought up Richard Epstein's op-ed about why we're overreacting to Coronavirus. I'd recommend anyone who is interested read this interview with him. It is, shall we say, breathtaking. This interview, among other things I've witnessed this afternoon, has me reflecting on how fascinating it is that people who wield the power and the authority often all but self-combust when forced to engage with views that call into question their own thinking.

[2006alum]

Someone a ways back brought up Richard Epstein's op-ed about why we're overreacting to Coronavirus. I'd recommend anyone who is interested read this interview with him. It is, shall we say, breathtaking. This interview, among other things I've witnessed this afternoon, has me reflecting on how fascinating it is that people who wield the power and the authority often all but self-combust when forced to engage with views that call into question their own thinking.

[Mick]

Trump has extended social distancing guidelines to April 30th.  Glad he reset expectations to something more reasonable,  if still aggressive.

Social distancing will be in full force until a vaccine is available.   2021 is something more reasonable, anything pre-June 2020 is an absolute pipe dream.

Stay at home may stop in May or June, but social distancing will be the order in CA and most other states until a vaccine is available.  Trump may lift the national social distancing restrictions, but only states without large cities will dare follow the order.  That may be helpful though as many business sectors could go months with work from home policies, but someone needs to be harvesting crops, processing food and making stuff.

Social distancing guidelines by states, WHO and the medical community will almost certainly leave life very far from normal for at least 12 more months.   College Football 2020 looks very vulnerable BTW. 

It remains very disappointing that the POTUS doesn't even hint at a multi-quarter social distancing scenario.

Though this particular approach to endlessly trying to spin a very negative story does shed light on how Trump could convince so many to keep extending lines of credit even after multiple bankruptcies.

Trump stated today that his call for “packed” churches at Easter was aspirational.

Based upon the notice taped to the doors of my church in SJ, I'd say that won't happen.  The local bishop Cantu gave a dispensation for the foreseeable future for masses and closed the schools.

https://www.dsj.org/diocese-suspends-pub...3-13-2020/

[Mick]

Trump has extended social distancing guidelines to April 30th.  Glad he reset expectations to something more reasonable,  if still aggressive.

Social distancing will be in full force until a vaccine is available.   2021 is something more reasonable, anything pre-June 2020 is an absolute pipe dream.

Stay at home may stop in May or June, but social distancing will be the order in CA and most other states until a vaccine is available.  Trump may lift the national social distancing restrictions, but only states without large cities will dare follow the order.  That may be helpful though as many business sectors could go months with work from home policies, but someone needs to be harvesting crops, processing food and making stuff.

Social distancing guidelines by states, WHO and the medical community will almost certainly leave life very far from normal for at least 12 more months.   College Football 2020 looks very vulnerable BTW. 

It remains very disappointing that the POTUS doesn't even hint at a multi-quarter social distancing scenario.

Though this particular approach to endlessly trying to spin a very negative story does shed light on how Trump could convince so many to keep extending lines of credit even after multiple bankruptcies.

Trump stated today that his call for “packed” churches at Easter was aspirational.

Based upon the notice taped to the doors of my church in SJ, I'd say that won't happen.  The local bishop Cantu gave a dispensation for the foreseeable future for masses and closed the schools.

https://www.dsj.org/diocese-suspends-pub...3-13-2020/

[burger]

Based upon the notice taped to the doors of my church in SJ, I'd say that won't happen.  The local bishop Cantu gave a dispensation for the foreseeable future for masses and closed the schools.

https://www.dsj.org/diocese-suspends-pub...3-13-2020/

You must've missed the reports about packed church services in Louisiana, Florida, etc.  You talked about unhygienic behavior in Detroit?  This is a lot more unhygienic as far as I'm concerned.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/coronavirus-c...t-guidance

[burger]

Based upon the notice taped to the doors of my church in SJ, I'd say that won't happen.  The local bishop Cantu gave a dispensation for the foreseeable future for masses and closed the schools.

https://www.dsj.org/diocese-suspends-pub...3-13-2020/

You must've missed the reports about packed church services in Louisiana, Florida, etc.  You talked about unhygienic behavior in Detroit?  This is a lot more unhygienic as far as I'm concerned.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/coronavirus-c...t-guidance

[fullmetal]

Someone a ways back brought up Richard Epstein's op-ed about why we're overreacting to Coronavirus. I'd recommend anyone who is interested read this interview with him. It is, shall we say, breathtaking. This interview, among other things I've witnessed this afternoon, has me reflecting on how fascinating it is that people who wield the power and the authority often all but self-combust when forced to engage with views that call into question their own thinking.

Wow.  Truly spoken like a lawyer who has no business contradicting the scientific establishment for the sake of being contrarian and then refusing to accept any responsibility for the ensuing havoc.

[fullmetal]

Someone a ways back brought up Richard Epstein's op-ed about why we're overreacting to Coronavirus. I'd recommend anyone who is interested read this interview with him. It is, shall we say, breathtaking. This interview, among other things I've witnessed this afternoon, has me reflecting on how fascinating it is that people who wield the power and the authority often all but self-combust when forced to engage with views that call into question their own thinking.

Wow.  Truly spoken like a lawyer who has no business contradicting the scientific establishment for the sake of being contrarian and then refusing to accept any responsibility for the ensuing havoc.