[French Rage]

If you were a consumer of Afghani contraband, would you buy it from a guy who just got out of a U.S. prison and is well-known to the entire world?  Would you trust that he's not a willing or inadvertent source for U.S. intelligence?

Exactly.  The guy who has been in prison for 12 years, has every government on the world watching his every move, and primarily deals in Russian-made weapons, which have done just great this year, is not going to be the guy doing any business.  But it sounds scary.

[French Rage]

If you were a consumer of Afghani contraband, would you buy it from a guy who just got out of a U.S. prison and is well-known to the entire world?  Would you trust that he's not a willing or inadvertent source for U.S. intelligence?

Exactly.  The guy who has been in prison for 12 years, has every government on the world watching his every move, and primarily deals in Russian-made weapons, which have done just great this year, is not going to be the guy doing any business.  But it sounds scary.

[Goose]

Also don't travel to Russia with drugs.

FIFY.  Russia isn't above planting evidence to achieve its means, or poison people who are a threat to its regime.

BC

They don't even need to plant evidence. You can just disappear. Nobody will know what happened, you are just gone. It happens. FWIW, Griner did admit the stuff belonged to her and that she accidentally packed it when she left. It wasn't fabricated. It was certainly a serendipity for Putin.

There was a time when the State Department simply said "Don't travel to Russia". There was a perception that Russia changed at the end of the cold war, but basically their justice system did not. The KGB got reorganized and renamed. The GRU continued exactly as before. You have no rights and no reasonable expectation of safety. If you go and something "bad" happens to you, it is on you.

[Goose]

Also don't travel to Russia with drugs.

FIFY.  Russia isn't above planting evidence to achieve its means, or poison people who are a threat to its regime.

BC

They don't even need to plant evidence. You can just disappear. Nobody will know what happened, you are just gone. It happens. FWIW, Griner did admit the stuff belonged to her and that she accidentally packed it when she left. It wasn't fabricated. It was certainly a serendipity for Putin.

There was a time when the State Department simply said "Don't travel to Russia". There was a perception that Russia changed at the end of the cold war, but basically their justice system did not. The KGB got reorganized and renamed. The GRU continued exactly as before. You have no rights and no reasonable expectation of safety. If you go and something "bad" happens to you, it is on you.

[qwerty49]

Also don't travel to Russia with drugs.

FIFY.  Russia isn't above planting evidence to achieve its means, or poison people who are a threat to its regime.

BC

Sure, but her lawyer admitted the drugs were hers. Maybe they were just playing the hand they were dealt and the drugs were planted, but the defense was that it was to help manage pain or some BS.

Which part do you consider to be BS? 

Smoking weed for pain is BS. Here is a recent meta-analysis showing benefits for pain are pretty much all or mostly a placebo effect.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanet...le/2799017

I don't know her true motivations for smoking weed and really don't care, but don't bring it with you to Russia FFS.

I go back to the days when weed was 100% illegal.  All the way back to 1967, truth be told.  That didn't stop me, but I was careful like everyone else was over the next 30-40 years or so.  When I lived overseas, I still smoked weed -- I just didn't do it there, I waited until I was back in the USA, where I knew what I was dealing with.  And I wasn't careless about bringing paraphernalia back with me in my luggage.  In a few countries I traveled to and worked in, weed was the death penalty.  You have to be an idiot to ignore that.

As for all the symbolism behind her arrest and detention?  {Whatever.}. Bottom line is Griner got a second chance.  Good for her and I hope she's very thankful.  Paul Whelan is still waiting.

[qwerty49]

Also don't travel to Russia with drugs.

FIFY.  Russia isn't above planting evidence to achieve its means, or poison people who are a threat to its regime.

BC

Sure, but her lawyer admitted the drugs were hers. Maybe they were just playing the hand they were dealt and the drugs were planted, but the defense was that it was to help manage pain or some BS.

Which part do you consider to be BS? 

Smoking weed for pain is BS. Here is a recent meta-analysis showing benefits for pain are pretty much all or mostly a placebo effect.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanet...le/2799017

I don't know her true motivations for smoking weed and really don't care, but don't bring it with you to Russia FFS.

I go back to the days when weed was 100% illegal.  All the way back to 1967, truth be told.  That didn't stop me, but I was careful like everyone else was over the next 30-40 years or so.  When I lived overseas, I still smoked weed -- I just didn't do it there, I waited until I was back in the USA, where I knew what I was dealing with.  And I wasn't careless about bringing paraphernalia back with me in my luggage.  In a few countries I traveled to and worked in, weed was the death penalty.  You have to be an idiot to ignore that.

As for all the symbolism behind her arrest and detention?  {Whatever.}. Bottom line is Griner got a second chance.  Good for her and I hope she's very thankful.  Paul Whelan is still waiting.

[Phogge]

Sooner or later we will have to fight the bastards. We should be doing everything in our intelligence arsenal to outwit them, disable their networks, screw up their economy and play off asshole vs asshole. If the Biden people are not doing it then shame on them.

Patton was correct.

[Phogge]

Sooner or later we will have to fight the bastards. We should be doing everything in our intelligence arsenal to outwit them, disable their networks, screw up their economy and play off asshole vs asshole. If the Biden people are not doing it then shame on them.

Patton was correct.

[Goose]

Sooner or later we will have to fight the bastards. We should be doing everything in our intelligence arsenal to outwit them, disable their networks, screw up their economy and play off asshole vs asshole. If the Biden people are not doing it then shame on them.

They aren't, unfortunately. The war in Ukraine is not priority 1 for the Administration, the Congress, or the American people. The last two are understandable, the first is not. It needs to be the first priority of the administration to ensure that either we don't have to "fight the bastards" and that if we do mankind will survive and we will win. The latter is really hard, so the administration needs to make sure they succeed at the former.

Patton was correct.

Possibly, but nobody was going to listen to him anyway. We were still fighting in the Pacific and everybody was damn tired of war. Going after Russia was the last thing on the country's mind.

[Goose]

Sooner or later we will have to fight the bastards. We should be doing everything in our intelligence arsenal to outwit them, disable their networks, screw up their economy and play off asshole vs asshole. If the Biden people are not doing it then shame on them.

They aren't, unfortunately. The war in Ukraine is not priority 1 for the Administration, the Congress, or the American people. The last two are understandable, the first is not. It needs to be the first priority of the administration to ensure that either we don't have to "fight the bastards" and that if we do mankind will survive and we will win. The latter is really hard, so the administration needs to make sure they succeed at the former.

Patton was correct.

Possibly, but nobody was going to listen to him anyway. We were still fighting in the Pacific and everybody was damn tired of war. Going after Russia was the last thing on the country's mind.

[cardcrimson]

Interesting thread and comments since the exchange. When I saw that Griner was released, I was too hesitant to post anything here, as any comment might be construed as being political. . . .

[cardcrimson]

Interesting thread and comments since the exchange. When I saw that Griner was released, I was too hesitant to post anything here, as any comment might be construed as being political. . . .

[BostonCard]

Interesting thread and comments since the exchange. When I saw that Griner was released, I was too hesitant to post anything here, as any comment might be construed as being political. . . .

It is (political) and a few of the comments have strayed into dangerous territory, so your caution is wise.  On the other hand, a Stanford coach has publicly called for her release, so it is at least a bit relevant.

We aren't going to solve whether negotiating with terrorists is wise or not or whether we should or should not exchange prisoners with autocratic countries who arbitrarily detain Americans.

BC

[BostonCard]

Interesting thread and comments since the exchange. When I saw that Griner was released, I was too hesitant to post anything here, as any comment might be construed as being political. . . .

It is (political) and a few of the comments have strayed into dangerous territory, so your caution is wise.  On the other hand, a Stanford coach has publicly called for her release, so it is at least a bit relevant.

We aren't going to solve whether negotiating with terrorists is wise or not or whether we should or should not exchange prisoners with autocratic countries who arbitrarily detain Americans.

BC

[SkiBum80]

Interesting thread and comments since the exchange. When I saw that Griner was released, I was too hesitant to post anything here, as any comment might be construed as being political. . . .

It is (political) and a few of the comments have strayed into dangerous territory, so your caution is wise.  On the other hand, a Stanford coach has publicly called for her release, so it is at least a bit relevant.

We aren't going to solve whether negotiating with terrorists is wise or not or whether we should or should not exchange prisoners with autocratic countries who arbitrarily detain Americans.

BC

It's very wise to the specific prisoner and family involved.
It's very unwise to the American travelers that follow.
For those that say "just don't go there", that's kinda easy to say after the fact.
And not so easy to adhere to for folks living in an international world with international obligations.

[SkiBum80]

Interesting thread and comments since the exchange. When I saw that Griner was released, I was too hesitant to post anything here, as any comment might be construed as being political. . . .

It is (political) and a few of the comments have strayed into dangerous territory, so your caution is wise.  On the other hand, a Stanford coach has publicly called for her release, so it is at least a bit relevant.

We aren't going to solve whether negotiating with terrorists is wise or not or whether we should or should not exchange prisoners with autocratic countries who arbitrarily detain Americans.

BC

It's very wise to the specific prisoner and family involved.
It's very unwise to the American travelers that follow.
For those that say "just don't go there", that's kinda easy to say after the fact.
And not so easy to adhere to for folks living in an international world with international obligations.

[martyup]

I go back to the days when weed was 100% illegal.  All the way back to 1967, truth be told.  That didn't stop me, but I was careful like everyone else was over the next 30-40 years or so.  When I lived overseas, I still smoked weed -- I just didn't do it there, I waited until I was back in the USA, where I knew what I was dealing with.  And I wasn't careless about bringing paraphernalia back with me in my luggage.  In a few countries I traveled to and worked in, weed was the death penalty.  You have to be an idiot to ignore that.

[martyup]

I go back to the days when weed was 100% illegal.  All the way back to 1967, truth be told.  That didn't stop me, but I was careful like everyone else was over the next 30-40 years or so.  When I lived overseas, I still smoked weed -- I just didn't do it there, I waited until I was back in the USA, where I knew what I was dealing with.  And I wasn't careless about bringing paraphernalia back with me in my luggage.  In a few countries I traveled to and worked in, weed was the death penalty.  You have to be an idiot to ignore that.

[cardcrimson]

If I recall correctly, that's some good sh*t. . . .

[cardcrimson]

If I recall correctly, that's some good sh*t. . . .

[M T]

One can believe that it was viewed as a big win for the Russian government to have the US gain the release of an athlete but not a Marine.  It will likely divide the American population in their feelings about this release more than if neither was released currently.

The return of Bout to Russia was probably just icing on that cake.  The one-for-one trade where one was an athlete and the other a convicted arms dealer is probably seen as demonstrating how weak America and its government are.   A smear of cannabis oil versus anti-aircraft missiles.

[M T]

One can believe that it was viewed as a big win for the Russian government to have the US gain the release of an athlete but not a Marine.  It will likely divide the American population in their feelings about this release more than if neither was released currently.

The return of Bout to Russia was probably just icing on that cake.  The one-for-one trade where one was an athlete and the other a convicted arms dealer is probably seen as demonstrating how weak America and its government are.   A smear of cannabis oil versus anti-aircraft missiles.

[Leftcoast]

Well, to turn the weak US/strong Russian narrative on it's head the US showed they care about ordinary citizens and victims of injustice while the Soviets showed they valued freeing an arms dealer that exported death to terrorists in the developing world.  If I were watching this from the outside I know where I'd want to live.

Bout was detained in 2010 and received a 25 year sentence of which he served half.  He is no longer anonymous and his arms dealing hey-day is 22 years in the rear view mirror.  He's unlikely to travel outside of Russia ever again.  Not justice but no one was going to get Briner freed without an unsavory trade of some sort.

[Leftcoast]

Well, to turn the weak US/strong Russian narrative on it's head the US showed they care about ordinary citizens and victims of injustice while the Soviets showed they valued freeing an arms dealer that exported death to terrorists in the developing world.  If I were watching this from the outside I know where I'd want to live.

Bout was detained in 2010 and received a 25 year sentence of which he served half.  He is no longer anonymous and his arms dealing hey-day is 22 years in the rear view mirror.  He's unlikely to travel outside of Russia ever again.  Not justice but no one was going to get Briner freed without an unsavory trade of some sort.

[Baez87]

If someone on the Cardboard would like to read an assessment of the Griner release by a respected historian and blogger, Heather Cox Richardson, check it out below. It analyzes the issue from a global, humanitarian, and political perspective.
https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.co...ber-8-2022

(Personally, my own view changed over the years: being a follower of SWBB, I saw her as a roadblock to our team's success (although we beat her team in Hawaii); completely soured on her when she sucker punched a Texas Tech player in a college game; thought she was stupid to go through foreign customs with any drug paraphernalia (prescription or not) as a 6’7” woman with tattoos all over her body; thought that she would be released after a couple weeks of detention; was outraged that she was paraded through a sham political trial for international political and propaganda purposes; was horrified that she was imprisoned for over 200 days in the Russian prison system, including being sent to a work camp in Siberia; and was overjoyed that she obtained a release (after all, she is a human being and a U.S. citizen in good standing) and could rejoin her family and loved ones.

[Baez87]

If someone on the Cardboard would like to read an assessment of the Griner release by a respected historian and blogger, Heather Cox Richardson, check it out below. It analyzes the issue from a global, humanitarian, and political perspective.
https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.co...ber-8-2022

(Personally, my own view changed over the years: being a follower of SWBB, I saw her as a roadblock to our team's success (although we beat her team in Hawaii); completely soured on her when she sucker punched a Texas Tech player in a college game; thought she was stupid to go through foreign customs with any drug paraphernalia (prescription or not) as a 6’7” woman with tattoos all over her body; thought that she would be released after a couple weeks of detention; was outraged that she was paraded through a sham political trial for international political and propaganda purposes; was horrified that she was imprisoned for over 200 days in the Russian prison system, including being sent to a work camp in Siberia; and was overjoyed that she obtained a release (after all, she is a human being and a U.S. citizen in good standing) and could rejoin her family and loved ones.

[MV72018]

Sooner or later we will have to fight the bastards. We should be doing everything in our intelligence arsenal to outwit them, disable their networks, screw up their economy and play off asshole vs asshole. If the Biden people are not doing it then shame on them.

Patton was correct.

Good call, Phogmeister.

[MV72018]

Sooner or later we will have to fight the bastards. We should be doing everything in our intelligence arsenal to outwit them, disable their networks, screw up their economy and play off asshole vs asshole. If the Biden people are not doing it then shame on them.

Patton was correct.

Good call, Phogmeister.

[MV72018]

Sooner or later we will have to fight the bastards. We should be doing everything in our intelligence arsenal to outwit them, disable their networks, screw up their economy and play off asshole vs asshole. If the Biden people are not doing it then shame on them.

Patton was correct.

Good call, Phogmeister. Contemporary Russia is dangerous for anyone who believes in and talks about human rights. It needs to be kept in check at all times. 

I can't believe Griner was stupid enough to bring those cartridges of cannabis oil with her into Russia. Her wife contends that she 'accidentally' brought the hashish oil with her. Which is it? Did she bring it by accident, which I find hard to believe, or did she bring it with her intentionally thinking that the prescription for medical marijuana that she was given by a U.S. doctor was equally valid in Russia (IMO, a very naive assumption). Didn't she have any clue about how societies like Russia, Iran, North Korea, and China look for any opportunity to arrest Americans for use in prisoner-exchange bargaining? If she was oblivious to that, why didn't her Russian team or her agent inform her about that? 

In effect, Griner's negligent or naive actions led to the release of a mass murderer. She also put Biden in a terrible position. WNBA players should be warned not to go to overseas to make bigger bucks in states that have justice systems that are subservient to autocratic leaders. Griner elected to go to Russia to make $1million from a Russian club, acted stupidly and negligently in traveling there, and put her country in a weak position. If a person like Griner chooses to pursue bigger bucks by playing in a country ruled by a despot, then she should assume all responsibility for what happens to her in that connection and not expect her country to bail her out.

[MV72018]

Sooner or later we will have to fight the bastards. We should be doing everything in our intelligence arsenal to outwit them, disable their networks, screw up their economy and play off asshole vs asshole. If the Biden people are not doing it then shame on them.

Patton was correct.

Good call, Phogmeister. Contemporary Russia is dangerous for anyone who believes in and talks about human rights. It needs to be kept in check at all times. 

I can't believe Griner was stupid enough to bring those cartridges of cannabis oil with her into Russia. Her wife contends that she 'accidentally' brought the hashish oil with her. Which is it? Did she bring it by accident, which I find hard to believe, or did she bring it with her intentionally thinking that the prescription for medical marijuana that she was given by a U.S. doctor was equally valid in Russia (IMO, a very naive assumption). Didn't she have any clue about how societies like Russia, Iran, North Korea, and China look for any opportunity to arrest Americans for use in prisoner-exchange bargaining? If she was oblivious to that, why didn't her Russian team or her agent inform her about that? 

In effect, Griner's negligent or naive actions led to the release of a mass murderer. She also put Biden in a terrible position. WNBA players should be warned not to go to overseas to make bigger bucks in states that have justice systems that are subservient to autocratic leaders. Griner elected to go to Russia to make $1million from a Russian club, acted stupidly and negligently in traveling there, and put her country in a weak position. If a person like Griner chooses to pursue bigger bucks by playing in a country ruled by a despot, then she should assume all responsibility for what happens to her in that connection and not expect her country to bail her out.

[Goose]

If a person like Griner chooses to pursue bigger bucks by playing in a country ruled by a despot, then she should assume all responsibility for what happens to her in that connection and not expect her country to bail her out.

While I agree with the sentiments expressed here, it never works that way. The US has an obligation to help US citizens detained in other countries, even if that person did something stupid. This is especially true when the US State Department has not banned travel to these countries, which, as of now, it has not done. I think it should do so. Recently they added "advisories" about travel to these countries, but IMHO that doesn't go far enough. In Griner's case, she actually did something that was against the law in Russia. However, that isn't required. They can try and convict perfectly innocent people.

Unfortunately, public opinion will not allow the US to just say "You knew the risks, you take the consequences" even in cases where it is deserved. The press and the victim's family play on public sympathy until the US at least attempts to get the person back. People should be aware, however, that Russia does not always agree to a deal. You can be stuck there forever.

[Goose]

If a person like Griner chooses to pursue bigger bucks by playing in a country ruled by a despot, then she should assume all responsibility for what happens to her in that connection and not expect her country to bail her out.

While I agree with the sentiments expressed here, it never works that way. The US has an obligation to help US citizens detained in other countries, even if that person did something stupid. This is especially true when the US State Department has not banned travel to these countries, which, as of now, it has not done. I think it should do so. Recently they added "advisories" about travel to these countries, but IMHO that doesn't go far enough. In Griner's case, she actually did something that was against the law in Russia. However, that isn't required. They can try and convict perfectly innocent people.

Unfortunately, public opinion will not allow the US to just say "You knew the risks, you take the consequences" even in cases where it is deserved. The press and the victim's family play on public sympathy until the US at least attempts to get the person back. People should be aware, however, that Russia does not always agree to a deal. You can be stuck there forever.

[Crafter Artisan]

This is especially true when the US State Department has not banned travel to these countries, which, as of now, it has not done. I think it should do so. Recently they added "advisories" about travel to these countries, but IMHO that doesn't go far enough.

I'd propose making the classic movie Midnight Express required viewing for those who are embarking on this kind of travel.

If I were in Griner's position and had just watched that movie you could be sure I wouldn't be #%&^*% around with any cannabis residue.

[Crafter Artisan]

This is especially true when the US State Department has not banned travel to these countries, which, as of now, it has not done. I think it should do so. Recently they added "advisories" about travel to these countries, but IMHO that doesn't go far enough.

I'd propose making the classic movie Midnight Express required viewing for those who are embarking on this kind of travel.

If I were in Griner's position and had just watched that movie you could be sure I wouldn't be #%&^*% around with any cannabis residue.

[Goose]

If I were in Griner's position and had just watched that movie you could be sure I wouldn't be #%&^*% around with any cannabis residue.

The correct answer is that if I were in Griner's position, I wouldn't go to Russia at all! Even if you carry nothing illegal, it doesn't matter. They can convict you anyway. People need to understand that it just plain isn't safe to go there.

[Goose]

If I were in Griner's position and had just watched that movie you could be sure I wouldn't be #%&^*% around with any cannabis residue.

The correct answer is that if I were in Griner's position, I wouldn't go to Russia at all! Even if you carry nothing illegal, it doesn't matter. They can convict you anyway. People need to understand that it just plain isn't safe to go there.

[BobK]

Don’t tell former Stanford star Anthony Brown who is playing in Russia per go Stanford

[BobK]

Don’t tell former Stanford star Anthony Brown who is playing in Russia per go Stanford

[cardcrimson]

Well, to turn the weak US/strong Russian narrative on it's head the US showed they care about ordinary citizens and victims of injustice while the Soviets showed they valued freeing an arms dealer that exported death to terrorists in the developing world.  If I were watching this from the outside I know where I'd want to live.

Bout was detained in 2010 and received a 25 year sentence of which he served half.  He is no longer anonymous and his arms dealing hey-day is 22 years in the rear view mirror.  He's unlikely to travel outside of Russia ever again.  Not justice but no one was going to get Briner freed without an unsavory trade of some sort.

A few questions/comments:

US showed they care about ordinary citizens: Do you really consider Griner, a two time gold medal olympian, an WNBA star, a prominent member of the African American and LBGTQ communities an ordinary citizen?

A victim of injustice: Griner, her lawyer, and her wife all acknowledge she entered Russia with hash oil. How is she a victim of injustice?

the Soviets [sic] showed they valued freeing an arms dealer that exported death to terrorists in the developing world: Bout didn't export death to terrorists. He sold them the weapons to bring death upon their enemies, especially the US, its partners, and their citizens. How is bargaining for the freedom of such an important weapon against your enemies perceived as being a bad thing?

He is no longer anonymous and his arms dealing hey-day is 22 years in the rear view mirror. Was he ever anonymous? If he was arrested in 2010, help with the math that his heyday was 22 years ago.

Not justice but no one was going to get Briner freed without an unsavory trade of some sort. No comment here, as a logical, historical reply would be deemed too political.

[cardcrimson]

Well, to turn the weak US/strong Russian narrative on it's head the US showed they care about ordinary citizens and victims of injustice while the Soviets showed they valued freeing an arms dealer that exported death to terrorists in the developing world.  If I were watching this from the outside I know where I'd want to live.

Bout was detained in 2010 and received a 25 year sentence of which he served half.  He is no longer anonymous and his arms dealing hey-day is 22 years in the rear view mirror.  He's unlikely to travel outside of Russia ever again.  Not justice but no one was going to get Briner freed without an unsavory trade of some sort.

A few questions/comments:

US showed they care about ordinary citizens: Do you really consider Griner, a two time gold medal olympian, an WNBA star, a prominent member of the African American and LBGTQ communities an ordinary citizen?

A victim of injustice: Griner, her lawyer, and her wife all acknowledge she entered Russia with hash oil. How is she a victim of injustice?

the Soviets [sic] showed they valued freeing an arms dealer that exported death to terrorists in the developing world: Bout didn't export death to terrorists. He sold them the weapons to bring death upon their enemies, especially the US, its partners, and their citizens. How is bargaining for the freedom of such an important weapon against your enemies perceived as being a bad thing?

He is no longer anonymous and his arms dealing hey-day is 22 years in the rear view mirror. Was he ever anonymous? If he was arrested in 2010, help with the math that his heyday was 22 years ago.

Not justice but no one was going to get Briner freed without an unsavory trade of some sort. No comment here, as a logical, historical reply would be deemed too political.