[BostonCard]

I can understand the frustration for two reasons: first, I’m sure coaches would prefer that the athletes devote more time to training and practice and second, a student getting their degree and grad transferring with one or two years of eligibility left means that we don’t benefit from the athlete’s most experienced years.

I would also add that while there is nothing sacred about four years of college, I feel like for most students, getting the most out of their Stanford education (not just classes, but networking, out of class conversations, and life skills) works better in four years than less than that.

But you can’t stop athletes from, you know, going to school.  It’s ridiculous on its face, and anathema to what we purport to champion.

BC

[BostonCard]

I can understand the frustration for two reasons: first, I’m sure coaches would prefer that the athletes devote more time to training and practice and second, a student getting their degree and grad transferring with one or two years of eligibility left means that we don’t benefit from the athlete’s most experienced years.

I would also add that while there is nothing sacred about four years of college, I feel like for most students, getting the most out of their Stanford education (not just classes, but networking, out of class conversations, and life skills) works better in four years than less than that.

But you can’t stop athletes from, you know, going to school.  It’s ridiculous on its face, and anathema to what we purport to champion.

BC

[Card10Fan]

Also, isn't the NCAA voting soon on allowing 5 years of eligibility for all players? So now are we going to try to make the course work so light that players can go from graduating in 3 to it now taking 5 years? It's not the player graduating early that is my concern. It's the fact they want so badly to leave the Stanford WBB program and go play somewhere else.

[Card10Fan]

Also, isn't the NCAA voting soon on allowing 5 years of eligibility for all players? So now are we going to try to make the course work so light that players can go from graduating in 3 to it now taking 5 years? It's not the player graduating early that is my concern. It's the fact they want so badly to leave the Stanford WBB program and go play somewhere else.

[Goose]

It's not the player graduating early that is my concern. It's the fact they want so badly to leave the Stanford WBB program and go play somewhere else.

I agree that the situation that appears to exist right now is a big problem. If players that would otherwise stay another year decide to leave because they really don't like the program Stanford indeed cannot succeed. Reasons to leave exist that don't involve the quality of the program or the atmosphere surrounding the program. Many of those reasons are outside the control of the coaches or the AD. Such reasons include wanting to get an advanced degree that is paid for elsewhere and not expecting to get much playing time in the future because you have been over-recruited. There are other reasons that the coach and AD can affect, but probably not solve in the short term. These include not liking your teammates, not expecting Stanford to win much, and not being a fit for the coach's system of play. People leaving for these reasons simply is to be expected. People allegedly leaving because of a "toxic atmosphere" created by the coaching staff is not. That seems to be where we are now.

[Goose]

It's not the player graduating early that is my concern. It's the fact they want so badly to leave the Stanford WBB program and go play somewhere else.

I agree that the situation that appears to exist right now is a big problem. If players that would otherwise stay another year decide to leave because they really don't like the program Stanford indeed cannot succeed. Reasons to leave exist that don't involve the quality of the program or the atmosphere surrounding the program. Many of those reasons are outside the control of the coaches or the AD. Such reasons include wanting to get an advanced degree that is paid for elsewhere and not expecting to get much playing time in the future because you have been over-recruited. There are other reasons that the coach and AD can affect, but probably not solve in the short term. These include not liking your teammates, not expecting Stanford to win much, and not being a fit for the coach's system of play. People leaving for these reasons simply is to be expected. People allegedly leaving because of a "toxic atmosphere" created by the coaching staff is not. That seems to be where we are now.

[Griffins78]

The issue is KP allegedly threatening or actively pursuing efforts to make it difficult for her players to leave and do what they believe is best for their careers and lives. Many of her players want to leave her team at Stanford and play elsewhere. Instead of making the Stanford and WBB a better experience for her players by creating a positive culture - one that players love and WANT to be part of, like so many of our other programs - she’s trying to force them to stay against their will.

In contrast, during the zoom call with the AD, the Men’s basketball HC talked about what a special place and experience Stanford is and he was going to do everything in his power to make coming to and staying at Stanford the strongest option he could. But ultimately he cared about the player and wanted what was best for them. If that meant going to the NBA after one year or transferring with a degree to play elsewhere, he was going to support them in making the best decision for the player and their family.

[Griffins78]

The issue is KP allegedly threatening or actively pursuing efforts to make it difficult for her players to leave and do what they believe is best for their careers and lives. Many of her players want to leave her team at Stanford and play elsewhere. Instead of making the Stanford and WBB a better experience for her players by creating a positive culture - one that players love and WANT to be part of, like so many of our other programs - she’s trying to force them to stay against their will.

In contrast, during the zoom call with the AD, the Men’s basketball HC talked about what a special place and experience Stanford is and he was going to do everything in his power to make coming to and staying at Stanford the strongest option he could. But ultimately he cared about the player and wanted what was best for them. If that meant going to the NBA after one year or transferring with a degree to play elsewhere, he was going to support them in making the best decision for the player and their family.

[2006alum]

The issue is KP allegedly threatening or actively pursuing efforts to make it difficult for her players to leave and do what they believe is best for their careers and lives. Many of her players want to leave her team at Stanford and play elsewhere. Instead of making the Stanford and WBB a better experience for her players by creating a positive culture - one that players love and WANT to be part of, like so many of our other programs - she’s trying to force them to stay against their will.

In contrast, during the zoom call with the AD, the Men’s basketball HC talked about what a special place and experience Stanford is and he was going to do everything in his power to make coming to and staying at Stanford the strongest option he could. But ultimately he cared about the player and wanted what was best for them. If that meant going to the NBA after one year or transferring with a degree to play elsewhere, he was going to support them in making the best decision for the player and their family.

Yes, I'm unsure if the AD realized it since I think he paired the programs together to take some heat off the WBB team, but by setting up a webinar with KP and KS side by side, he did KP no favors. KS exudes the kind of positivity and "rah rah Stanford" that I think epitomizes the best of the culture of the Farm; the absence of that in hearing KP talk made it even more apparent that there's a culture problem with the WBB program.

BTW, does anyone know what's happening with De Vries? It's been almost a month since Sotelo signed and still nothing with De Vries. Surely admissions doesn't take THAT long?

[2006alum]

The issue is KP allegedly threatening or actively pursuing efforts to make it difficult for her players to leave and do what they believe is best for their careers and lives. Many of her players want to leave her team at Stanford and play elsewhere. Instead of making the Stanford and WBB a better experience for her players by creating a positive culture - one that players love and WANT to be part of, like so many of our other programs - she’s trying to force them to stay against their will.

In contrast, during the zoom call with the AD, the Men’s basketball HC talked about what a special place and experience Stanford is and he was going to do everything in his power to make coming to and staying at Stanford the strongest option he could. But ultimately he cared about the player and wanted what was best for them. If that meant going to the NBA after one year or transferring with a degree to play elsewhere, he was going to support them in making the best decision for the player and their family.

Yes, I'm unsure if the AD realized it since I think he paired the programs together to take some heat off the WBB team, but by setting up a webinar with KP and KS side by side, he did KP no favors. KS exudes the kind of positivity and "rah rah Stanford" that I think epitomizes the best of the culture of the Farm; the absence of that in hearing KP talk made it even more apparent that there's a culture problem with the WBB program.

BTW, does anyone know what's happening with De Vries? It's been almost a month since Sotelo signed and still nothing with De Vries. Surely admissions doesn't take THAT long?

[qwerty49]

The issue is KP allegedly threatening or actively pursuing efforts to make it difficult for her players to leave and do what they believe is best for their careers and lives. Many of her players want to leave her team at Stanford and play elsewhere. Instead of making the Stanford and WBB a better experience for her players by creating a positive culture - one that players love and WANT to be part of, like so many of our other programs - she’s trying to force them to stay against their will.

In contrast, during the zoom call with the AD, the Men’s basketball HC talked about what a special place and experience Stanford is and he was going to do everything in his power to make coming to and staying at Stanford the strongest option he could. But ultimately he cared about the player and wanted what was best for them. If that meant going to the NBA after one year or transferring with a degree to play elsewhere, he was going to support them in making the best decision for the player and their family.

Yes, I'm unsure if the AD realized it since I think he paired the programs together to take some heat off the WBB team, but by setting up a webinar with KP and KS side by side, he did KP no favors. KS exudes the kind of positivity and "rah rah Stanford" that I think epitomizes the best of the culture of the Farm; the absence of that in hearing KP talk made it even more apparent that there's a culture problem with the WBB program.

BTW, does anyone know what's happening with De Vries? It's been almost a month since Sotelo signed and still nothing with De Vries. Surely admissions doesn't take THAT long?

I’m glad I’m not the only one who detected the “Sad Sack” vibe. Time for big-time change IMHO.

[qwerty49]

The issue is KP allegedly threatening or actively pursuing efforts to make it difficult for her players to leave and do what they believe is best for their careers and lives. Many of her players want to leave her team at Stanford and play elsewhere. Instead of making the Stanford and WBB a better experience for her players by creating a positive culture - one that players love and WANT to be part of, like so many of our other programs - she’s trying to force them to stay against their will.

In contrast, during the zoom call with the AD, the Men’s basketball HC talked about what a special place and experience Stanford is and he was going to do everything in his power to make coming to and staying at Stanford the strongest option he could. But ultimately he cared about the player and wanted what was best for them. If that meant going to the NBA after one year or transferring with a degree to play elsewhere, he was going to support them in making the best decision for the player and their family.

Yes, I'm unsure if the AD realized it since I think he paired the programs together to take some heat off the WBB team, but by setting up a webinar with KP and KS side by side, he did KP no favors. KS exudes the kind of positivity and "rah rah Stanford" that I think epitomizes the best of the culture of the Farm; the absence of that in hearing KP talk made it even more apparent that there's a culture problem with the WBB program.

BTW, does anyone know what's happening with De Vries? It's been almost a month since Sotelo signed and still nothing with De Vries. Surely admissions doesn't take THAT long?

I’m glad I’m not the only one who detected the “Sad Sack” vibe. Time for big-time change IMHO.

[paloalto]

I remember when Paye was announced as the new head coach there was much excitement and general approval by the WBB fans here.  Now, is there anyone defending her as doing an acceptable job and looking forward to a long Paye tenure?

[paloalto]

I remember when Paye was announced as the new head coach there was much excitement and general approval by the WBB fans here.  Now, is there anyone defending her as doing an acceptable job and looking forward to a long Paye tenure?

[Card10Fan]

I remember when Paye was announced as the new head coach there was much excitement and general approval by the WBB fans here.  Now, is there anyone defending her as doing an acceptable job and looking forward to a long Paye tenure?

Nope. I personally was not thrilled with her being handed the job w/no prior experience as a HC. But I was optimistically confident she was well prepared enough especially being so involved in helping run the program the last few years of TVD's time. It appears we were all misguided in our expectations and excitement.

[Card10Fan]

I remember when Paye was announced as the new head coach there was much excitement and general approval by the WBB fans here.  Now, is there anyone defending her as doing an acceptable job and looking forward to a long Paye tenure?

Nope. I personally was not thrilled with her being handed the job w/no prior experience as a HC. But I was optimistically confident she was well prepared enough especially being so involved in helping run the program the last few years of TVD's time. It appears we were all misguided in our expectations and excitement.

[BobK]

We have known for 8-9 years Paye would be the Head Coach. Very disappointing as it turned out.

Like Johnson, Dawkins and Haase for the Men

Or Curtice , Wiggin, Elway, Harris , Taylor for Football

I’m used to disappointments

[BobK]

We have known for 8-9 years Paye would be the Head Coach. Very disappointing as it turned out.

Like Johnson, Dawkins and Haase for the Men

Or Curtice , Wiggin, Elway, Harris , Taylor for Football

I’m used to disappointments

[PalmTree]

I remember when Paye was announced as the new head coach there was much excitement and general approval by the WBB fans here.  Now, is there anyone defending her as doing an acceptable job and looking forward to a long Paye tenure?

Nope. I personally was not thrilled with her being handed the job w/no prior experience as a HC. But I was optimistically confident she was well prepared enough especially being so involved in helping run the program the last few years of TVD's time. It appears we were all misguided in our expectations and excitement.

Yup - moi aussi, all down the line - I remember thinking, why the rush? Le sigh....

[PalmTree]

I remember when Paye was announced as the new head coach there was much excitement and general approval by the WBB fans here.  Now, is there anyone defending her as doing an acceptable job and looking forward to a long Paye tenure?

Nope. I personally was not thrilled with her being handed the job w/no prior experience as a HC. But I was optimistically confident she was well prepared enough especially being so involved in helping run the program the last few years of TVD's time. It appears we were all misguided in our expectations and excitement.

Yup - moi aussi, all down the line - I remember thinking, why the rush? Le sigh....

[qwerty49]

I remember when Paye was announced as the new head coach there was much excitement and general approval by the WBB fans here.  Now, is there anyone defending her as doing an acceptable job and looking forward to a long Paye tenure?

Nope. I personally was not thrilled with her being handed the job w/no prior experience as a HC. But I was optimistically confident she was well prepared enough especially being so involved in helping run the program the last few years of TVD's time. It appears we were all misguided in our expectations and excitement.

I seem to recall she had responsibility for doing the “scout” at one point and that she got some props for that.

[qwerty49]

I remember when Paye was announced as the new head coach there was much excitement and general approval by the WBB fans here.  Now, is there anyone defending her as doing an acceptable job and looking forward to a long Paye tenure?

Nope. I personally was not thrilled with her being handed the job w/no prior experience as a HC. But I was optimistically confident she was well prepared enough especially being so involved in helping run the program the last few years of TVD's time. It appears we were all misguided in our expectations and excitement.

I seem to recall she had responsibility for doing the “scout” at one point and that she got some props for that.

[BobK]

Paye was doing Scout 2008 until Amy retired

[BobK]

Paye was doing Scout 2008 until Amy retired

[jonnyss]

i think kate's jd and mba are quite impressive. unfortunately, neither a legalistic nor a business-like mindset necessarily help a coach.

[jonnyss]

i think kate's jd and mba are quite impressive. unfortunately, neither a legalistic nor a business-like mindset necessarily help a coach.

[Treebound]

i think kate's jd and mba are quite impressive. unfortunately, neither a legalistic nor a business-like mindset necessarily help a coach.

Perhaps she should have taken some School of Humanities and Sciences sports psychology classes...or maybe she's taking them now.  Hard to shift culture quickly, but hopefully the staff is working together with some outside help to turn it around as fast as they can.

[Treebound]

i think kate's jd and mba are quite impressive. unfortunately, neither a legalistic nor a business-like mindset necessarily help a coach.

Perhaps she should have taken some School of Humanities and Sciences sports psychology classes...or maybe she's taking them now.  Hard to shift culture quickly, but hopefully the staff is working together with some outside help to turn it around as fast as they can.

[MV72018]

i think kate's jd and mba are quite impressive. unfortunately, neither a legalistic nor a business-like mindset necessarily help a coach.

Perhaps she should have taken some School of Humanities and Sciences sports psychology classes...or maybe she's taking them now.  Hard to shift culture quickly, but hopefully the staff is working together with some outside help to turn it around as fast as they can.

"Hard" to shift culture quickly? Rather it's virtually impossible -- especially with the same person in charge. Bringing in a new person, such as the charismatic Harbaugh, opens the possibility of significant cultural change in a reasonable time frame. Can anyone think of an instance in which no key personnel changes were made and yet major cultural change was effected in short order? I can't. Effecting significant cultural change is not a "flipping the light switch" process. Significant cultural change is the result of gestational factors as much as it is to impositional efforts.

[MV72018]

i think kate's jd and mba are quite impressive. unfortunately, neither a legalistic nor a business-like mindset necessarily help a coach.

Perhaps she should have taken some School of Humanities and Sciences sports psychology classes...or maybe she's taking them now.  Hard to shift culture quickly, but hopefully the staff is working together with some outside help to turn it around as fast as they can.

"Hard" to shift culture quickly? Rather it's virtually impossible -- especially with the same person in charge. Bringing in a new person, such as the charismatic Harbaugh, opens the possibility of significant cultural change in a reasonable time frame. Can anyone think of an instance in which no key personnel changes were made and yet major cultural change was effected in short order? I can't. Effecting significant cultural change is not a "flipping the light switch" process. Significant cultural change is the result of gestational factors as much as it is to impositional efforts.

[qwerty49]

Forget about Kate. I’m sure she’s a good person but she doesn’t seem to have the personality to recognize, accept, make and/or delegate the necessary changes at this point.

I tend to live with “prepare for the worst, hope for the best” a lot these days. At this point I hope there are enough cupcakes on next year’s schedule to let us escape with .500 ball. We would be disappointed but most of the outside world would just shrug since .500 ball is not that bad in most sports. 

David Shaw lived off Jim Harbaugh’s legacy for pretty long, until he ran out of magic inspiration. Kate looks to be in the same position w/r/t Tara.

[qwerty49]

Forget about Kate. I’m sure she’s a good person but she doesn’t seem to have the personality to recognize, accept, make and/or delegate the necessary changes at this point.

I tend to live with “prepare for the worst, hope for the best” a lot these days. At this point I hope there are enough cupcakes on next year’s schedule to let us escape with .500 ball. We would be disappointed but most of the outside world would just shrug since .500 ball is not that bad in most sports. 

David Shaw lived off Jim Harbaugh’s legacy for pretty long, until he ran out of magic inspiration. Kate looks to be in the same position w/r/t Tara.

[Goose]

David Shaw lived off Jim Harbaugh’s legacy for pretty long, until he ran out of magic inspiration. Kate looks to be in the same position w/r/t Tara.

Really? While I definitely take issue with the idea that David Shaw "lived off Jim Harbaugh's legacy" even if one accepts that argument Shaw was successful for 7 (at a minimum) of his 12 seasons and is the winningest coach in program history. Kate obviously has had no similar success in her two years as head coach at Stanford. Her situation is nothing at all like David Shaw.

[Goose]

David Shaw lived off Jim Harbaugh’s legacy for pretty long, until he ran out of magic inspiration. Kate looks to be in the same position w/r/t Tara.

Really? While I definitely take issue with the idea that David Shaw "lived off Jim Harbaugh's legacy" even if one accepts that argument Shaw was successful for 7 (at a minimum) of his 12 seasons and is the winningest coach in program history. Kate obviously has had no similar success in her two years as head coach at Stanford. Her situation is nothing at all like David Shaw.

[BostonCard]

Yeah, I think the fact that all major sports (football, mens basketball, womens basketball, baseball) are all currently at or near their all-time lows speaks to maybe the changes in the environment around collegiate athletics having as much or more to do with David Shaw’s downfall than anything he did.  To wit, his immediate successor never won more games than Shaw’s worst season.

NIL, the portal, and COVID upended Stanford’s value proposition.  Perhaps a more dynamic coach would have recognized the shift earlier and found a way to cushion the blow, but I think saying that Shaw “coasted” on Harbaugh’s accomplishments (when he won the PAC-12 North 7 years after Harbaugh left) while neglecting everything else that was going seems unduly harsh.  I don’t think that a school whose entire story revolved around the 40-year decision resonates in a day when scholar athletes are making a series of 1-year decisions.  It’s been a problem (at the end of Shaw’s career, the last couple years of VanDerveer’s, and well pretty much every basketball coach since Montgomery).  It will continue to be a problem at least until things settle out in college sports.

BC

[BostonCard]

Yeah, I think the fact that all major sports (football, mens basketball, womens basketball, baseball) are all currently at or near their all-time lows speaks to maybe the changes in the environment around collegiate athletics having as much or more to do with David Shaw’s downfall than anything he did.  To wit, his immediate successor never won more games than Shaw’s worst season.

NIL, the portal, and COVID upended Stanford’s value proposition.  Perhaps a more dynamic coach would have recognized the shift earlier and found a way to cushion the blow, but I think saying that Shaw “coasted” on Harbaugh’s accomplishments (when he won the PAC-12 North 7 years after Harbaugh left) while neglecting everything else that was going seems unduly harsh.  I don’t think that a school whose entire story revolved around the 40-year decision resonates in a day when scholar athletes are making a series of 1-year decisions.  It’s been a problem (at the end of Shaw’s career, the last couple years of VanDerveer’s, and well pretty much every basketball coach since Montgomery).  It will continue to be a problem at least until things settle out in college sports.

BC

[Hieronymus]

David Shaw lived off Jim Harbaugh’s legacy for pretty long, until he ran out of magic inspiration. Kate looks to be in the same position w/r/t Tara.

Really? While I definitely take issue with the idea that David Shaw "lived off Jim Harbaugh's legacy" even if one accepts that argument Shaw was successful for 7 (at a minimum) of his 12 seasons and is the winningest coach in program history. Kate obviously has had no similar success in her two years as head coach at Stanford. Her situation is nothing at all like David Shaw.

Yeah this is pretty unfair to Shaw. I was firmly in the camp that Shaw stuck around 2-3 years too long as the decline became obvious. But at the same time, you can’t deny he was massively successful - and beyond just living off Harbaugh’s legacy. As noted, KP so far has no successes to claim in contrast. Next year is unlikely to change that fact, and I hope we don’t witness a year 4.

[Hieronymus]

David Shaw lived off Jim Harbaugh’s legacy for pretty long, until he ran out of magic inspiration. Kate looks to be in the same position w/r/t Tara.

Really? While I definitely take issue with the idea that David Shaw "lived off Jim Harbaugh's legacy" even if one accepts that argument Shaw was successful for 7 (at a minimum) of his 12 seasons and is the winningest coach in program history. Kate obviously has had no similar success in her two years as head coach at Stanford. Her situation is nothing at all like David Shaw.

Yeah this is pretty unfair to Shaw. I was firmly in the camp that Shaw stuck around 2-3 years too long as the decline became obvious. But at the same time, you can’t deny he was massively successful - and beyond just living off Harbaugh’s legacy. As noted, KP so far has no successes to claim in contrast. Next year is unlikely to change that fact, and I hope we don’t witness a year 4.

[crackpot]

David Shaw lived off Jim Harbaugh’s legacy for pretty long, until he ran out of magic inspiration. Kate looks to be in the same position w/r/t Tara.

Really? While I definitely take issue with the idea that David Shaw "lived off Jim Harbaugh's legacy" even if one accepts that argument Shaw was successful for 7 (at a minimum) of his 12 seasons and is the winningest coach in program history. Kate obviously has had no similar success in her two years as head coach at Stanford. Her situation is nothing at all like David Shaw.

Yeah this is pretty unfair to Shaw. I was firmly in the camp that Shaw stuck around 2-3 years too long as the decline became obvious. But at the same time, you can’t deny he was massively successful - and beyond just living off Harbaugh’s legacy. As noted, KP so far has no successes to claim in contrast. Next year is unlikely to change that fact, and I hope we don’t witness a year 4.

Yup. And when Harbaugh left, didn't player leadership make their case to the AD that Shaw should be head coach?  If WBB didn't have the ill-fated deal in place, would the players have done the same for KP? My money says no.

[crackpot]

David Shaw lived off Jim Harbaugh’s legacy for pretty long, until he ran out of magic inspiration. Kate looks to be in the same position w/r/t Tara.

Really? While I definitely take issue with the idea that David Shaw "lived off Jim Harbaugh's legacy" even if one accepts that argument Shaw was successful for 7 (at a minimum) of his 12 seasons and is the winningest coach in program history. Kate obviously has had no similar success in her two years as head coach at Stanford. Her situation is nothing at all like David Shaw.

Yeah this is pretty unfair to Shaw. I was firmly in the camp that Shaw stuck around 2-3 years too long as the decline became obvious. But at the same time, you can’t deny he was massively successful - and beyond just living off Harbaugh’s legacy. As noted, KP so far has no successes to claim in contrast. Next year is unlikely to change that fact, and I hope we don’t witness a year 4.

Yup. And when Harbaugh left, didn't player leadership make their case to the AD that Shaw should be head coach?  If WBB didn't have the ill-fated deal in place, would the players have done the same for KP? My money says no.